Small group discussion time!
A conversation started over at the “Ragamuffin Soul” blog about family planning since the author of the blog took a rather permanent step in, well family planning. For those just tuning in, head over to http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=3686 to catch up. I’m sure many aren’t interested in seeing a debate continue out of an old tired topic, and that’s the main reason why I want to move the discussion to here. But I’m not after a debate. When couples meet in small groups, it’s not to debate and see who’s right and wrong. It’s to share thoughts, realize that other people have different perspectives, and deepen your understanding of God’s world/Word by broadening perspectives. It’s for this reason that I feel compelled to respond to Jarrett’s comments. He says:
The thing that gets me most about that argument is how miserably Jesus failed at Biblical Family Planning.
Clearly building the kingdom through child birth was not high on the priority list for Jesus.
Same with the argument that the goal for christian singles is marriage, and that the goal of marriage is to have as many kids as possible.
Again, Jesus kinda missed on that one.Maybe not as important to him as it is to us.
The reason why I can’t leave this well enough alone is the statement that “Jesus failed [miserably] at Biblical Family Planning”. That bugs the snot out of me. The man who gets his girlfriend pregnant failed at biblical family planning. The couple who has lots of kids but never covenant into marriage failed at biblical family planning. Of course, that’s just my opinion.
So WWJD?
Jesus didn’t get married, so if we want to follow his example, aren’t we already blowing it by getting married? Isn’t it “apples and oranges” to say that Jesus never had kids, so we shouldn’t either (if you’re already married)?
Isn’t building the kingdom through child birth a part of Jesus (and God’s) plan? Isn’t it out of context to say that because he didn’t marry and have children during his 33 year visit, that he doesn’t want the kingdom to expand by marrying and having children?
I can’t think of any more questions, so I’m going to close with one more statement of my opinion. It is NOT my opinion that the goal of marriage is to have as many kids as possible. It IS my opinion that kids are a blessing from God.
It weighs heavy on my heart whenever I hear about another family making this decision since they are taking a permanent step against a temporary circumstance (fertility). It does break my heart. I can’t say what my Father’s emotional response is…am I just a freak?
Or maybe I’m just jealous. It seems God’s plan was to close my wife’s womb after only two children (we don’t know yet if this is permanent). If anybody has any extras, my contact info is here.
Well written Daniel.
I think your last statement clears it up a bit for me.
It seems like you want more children and are not able to? Correct me if I am wrong. So I think that it strikes a closer bell with you.
Like I said. Thanks for your discussion
Los said this on December 14, 2007 at 09:46
It is a personal issue with me, but to explain why is extremely complex. I do feel a sense of loss as we are currently unable to have more children (but we have plenty of doctors visits and we don’t know yet if this is permanently the case).
When we first married, I didn’t want anything to do with kids. I was an only child and our verbal pre-nup was that I would never have children, but God had different plans for me. After my first child was born I changed my mind and thought it wasn’t so bad. Happy with the second child. Would be happy with more. In some ways relieved because we have financial and marital issues to work out in this interim.
I’m also emotionally tied because I’ve seen the regret in the face of a man who realizes how selfish he was when he underwent a vasectomy and realizes that in some ways he cut himself off from a form of blessing. I said he “compensated” by adopting and I regret the choice of words…but he is adopting as that is now what God has planned for him.
I also agreed with most of Voddie’s message. I see our culture as changing the way we think. People look at you funny when you have more than 2 or 3 kids…when it was quite the opposite long ago and still is in other cultures. Of course, having 20 kids might be a cultural thing too…I don’t want to put God in a box by saying he did or did not intend one thing or another, unless we can see as plain as day scripture that paints a picture one way or another. Debt is another hot topic that isn’t clearly banned in scripture, but in the context of scripture, there’s a clear message to stay away from it. And as far as family planning goes, I don’t think a vesectomy brings fire and brimstone, but in the whole context of scripture, there is a strong message about the value of children.
And I see it as a selfish act to go contrary to these values. But it doesn’t arouse my condemnation, just my sympathy. You’ve lost something. I just hope and pray now that it doesn’t turn into a bigger issue down the road (eg, what if God calls your wife home and you decide to remarry).
Daniel Koster said this on December 14, 2007 at 11:55
Daniel,
Smart idea to move the converation over here. It is too big of a conversation to have in a blog about Daddy’s Vasectomy.
I appreciate your spirit in this and feel that we are both coming around a similar idea from different perspectives.
I too believe that children are a blessing. We have a 2 year old boy, a little girl on the way, and have begun the process of adopting as well.
There is honestly not a day that goes by that I am not thankful to God for my wife and for our children. I am daily brought to me knees in dependence and and back to my feet in joy.
However, I have sat and sit and weep with friends and family members who can not get pregnant or who have lost children. The last thing they need from me is the unbiblical pressure that they are missing out on a “mandate” that as far as I can see was only given to Adam and Eve and Noah and his offspring when there were no other people on the planet.
There are several proverbs that speak to the blessing of children and the blessing of many children. But as far as I can see, those are not mandates.
Again, I have to come back to Jesus. If it was a mandate or directive or even purpose from God for us to have as many children as possible, then why didn’t he do it? I don’t think that can be overlooked when Jesus himself said that he came to fulfill the law – every law. If this was central or critical, I think we would know.
This to me feels like another one a great list of many things that we put a little bit too much emphasis on. There are so many other things in scripture that are crystal clear (God’s call to holiness, God’s heart for the poor, God’s gift of Grace, etc.)
I am grateful that there is room in God’s kingdom to lovingly disagree. My hunch is that there are so many things we stand side by side on. The idea of Biblical Family Planning however, isn’t one of them.
Much Love.
Great Conversation.
Jarrett
Jarrett said this on December 14, 2007 at 15:54
To the question, “Is it a biblical mandate to have children?”, we are obviously in 100% agreement.
My question, “Is it sin to butcher your ability to have children?” isn’t so clear.
I’m not on a mission to find those who have sterilized themselves and call them sinners. But if I run into someone who is thinking about it, I am going to take the time to try to get them to see a different point of view. Which is what I did in this event, I saw the posts before the surgery and felt I had to say something.
Now I’ve got to start the letter campaign to NP leadership to address one of their staff’s blatant rejection of God’s sovereignty.
JUST KIDDING!!!!!! Someday I’ll visit the Buckhead campus and I’ll try to say “Hi” if I find any of you.
Daniel Koster said this on December 14, 2007 at 16:18